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ChineseMetrolink Crash
Reports are coming in about a horrible Metrolink crash in the SFV. As of 9:10pm, reports are that the outbound 111, departing Union Station for Moorpark at 3:35pm, had a head-on collision with a freight train in Chatsworth. Injured passengers are being taken as far as the UCLA hospital in Westwood. Mayor Villaraigosa is reporting “at least 10 fatalities” but all authorities are anticipating that number to rise.
It’s too early to figure out what happened, but I was honestly shocked to see that the tracks are single-tracked through that section - there was a local community member being interviewed on saying that Metrolink wanted to double-track through the area, but the neighborhood opposed it. I truly hope to G-d that I misheard that.
I was having coffee in Silverlake after it happened and saw numerous fire trucks and ambulances heading west down Sunset; presumably, they were heading to Chatsworth.
This incident is being reported internationally: LA Times, New York Times, Boston Globe, BBC, ha’Aretz, Xinhua.
I’ll try to update this as more knowledge becomes available. Right now the news is showing the search dogs coming onto the scene and is otherwise recycling the already-known information.
[Update 9:27pm] KABC is reporting that residents did, indeed, oppose the double-tracking of this area of the tracks because “more train tracks mean more collisions.” The illogic of that statement is just astounding, and I find myself hoping that they never get a good night’s sleep again. If KABC’s reporting is accurate (they’re speaking somewhat imprecisely), NIMBYs have gone from simply opposing rail lines to killing people.
[Update 9:40pm] Metrolink is providing information for people who may be looking for those who may have been involved in the incident:
Family Assistance Center for families of passengers at Chatsworth High School 8538 De Soto Avenue. The hotline number at the Chatsworth High School Family Assistance Center is (818) 678-3422.
Family members of passengers on board train 111, please call (800) 371-LINK for information.
Discussion
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Just a nightmarish event all around. As a semi-regular Metrolink rider I can’t deny that this accident doesn’t make me a bit apprehensive. Unlike the last major Metrolink accident, which was sort of a freak event caused by a psycho, this seems to be the product of an error that could have and should have been prevented. Also, another unrelated Metrolink death happened less than an hour after the Chatsworth crash, where it looks like a driver was trying to beat the train and got hit. Not a good day for Metrolink or Metrolink riders. Let’s hope the fatalities and injuries don’t rise.
Thanks for the report Aaron.
I’ll be taking the OC Line tomorrow and Sunday. I wonder what the mood will be like and if there will be any decreased ridership compared to other weekends.
Between this and Corona, Spokker, I’d check to make sure that the trains are running at all.
The Metrolink web site sure isn’t any help.
I’ll just show up tomorrow and see. If not, I’ll drive. No big deal.
By the way, first NIMBY resident is on the news now complaining about the tracks and how fast the freight trains go. He says he “noticed” they go too fast and that he’s concerned for his safety.
Holy crap this guy’s nuts. The reporter actually mentioned that the tracks were there before his house was, but he isn’t having any of that!
Yeah, we can’t very well have safe tracks, not when the trains are too loud. I’m stunned that it’s sounding like we could’ve double-tracked this but the residents opposed it because of the noise. I wish there was a cause of action that could be brought against them.
I know I’m responding with anger, and that the news isn’t doing a good job of reporting all of the details yet, but I hope they all rot in hell.
Any residents who opposed the double tracking of this segment of track certainly didn’t want anyone to die, and there’s no guarantee that double tracking necessarily prevents these sorts of accidents, though I’m sure it helps.
I definitely agree that there should be more double tracking and as much separation as possible between passenger trains and freight trains. But apparently there’s no money to do that. Then there are the usual arguments that I won’t get into here.
NIMBY’s or no NIMBY’s. Single Track or Double Track. The fact is that this train line makes the same trip 11 times a day and has done so since 1992, and so clearly someone failed at their job. Someone messed up somewhere along the line, and while it might be a good chance to rail at NIMBY’s, I simply don’t think that’s the case since as far as I know there hasn’t been an accident anywhere near this caliber on this line in the 16 years it has existed. As the investigation unfold I’m sure we’ll found out exactly where things went wrong in the normal operating procedures.
Hmmm.
http://www.metrolinktrainriders.com/MTR/
Interesting…
Metrolink crash situation room: http://yeson91.net/situationroom/
They just showed the LAPD taking the body of one of their own away.
Spokker:
“They just showed the LAPD taking the body of one of their own away.”
Is there a link to the story/photo?
It was on the various news feeds from the link calwatch posted.
I saw that lady being interviewed and talking about the double-track situation as well. I heard it a little differently than you Aaron. It seemed that she was saying that metro wanted to double track the area, the neighborhood opposed it, but that metrolink double-tracked a section anyway, and that usually the metrolink train would wait on one of the two tracks while freight trains would go by. But this time apparently that cadence was screwed up or something. It was a little unclear to me what exactly her point was.
My heart sank as I was watching the coverage and a reporter was interviewing bystanders while footage showed the rescue operation in the background. One of the fire-trucks seemed to be using it’s air ladder as a crane, it was hoisting something with a white sheet draped over it up out of the train wreckage. As it moved, the wind blew away part of the sheet, clearly exposing the dead body of a man hanging limp from the point of attachment somewhere near his waste.
God how awful.
cheers mate
That’s horrible :(. I have very poor vision so I don’t always see what’s going on in these things :(.
And yeah, David, I was hearing imprecise info, so it could’ve just as easily meant that, the way you describe it. I suppose we’ll find out soon enough, but I hope the information is used to make transportation safer rather than to just react in fear.
Steve Hymon posted a short bit on the Bottleneck Blog about the crash and what he said really got to me:
Taking the train should not be a risk. Okay, a suicidal maniac parks his car on the track, there’s nothing that could be done to prepare for that. But a daily commuter train hitting a freight train head-on in the middle of the day? It’s not right. Hymon chose the right word when he wrote “fail”.
I agree. This is something that has to be fixed, although I might note that rail travel on the whole is still much safer than travel by private vehicle. But just because something is safer doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement, and no matter what ends up being the case here, it will probably come out that this was preventable.
Sorry, but “not killing anyone ever” is not a realistic goal to hold mass transit to. There are accidents, and there will be accidents, whether it’s due to equipment failure or operator error, or some kind of inherent flaw in the design of the system.
The saving grace of public transit is that accidents happen a lot less per passenger mile than cars.
What do you “fix”? You want to stop the Metrolink service until someone comes up with the money to build enough tracks to separate passenger and freight traffic?
One day a semi is going to crash through the center divider of the 210 or 110 and collide with a Green or Gold Line train that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then we’ll crow that something needs to be fixed or that mass transit has failed us.
I think that Fred and Steve Hymon are acting emotionally right now
“Okay, a suicidal maniac parks his car on the track, there’s nothing that could be done to prepare for that.”
Sealed corridor. Could’ve built a fence. Sorry, but the blood is on Metrolink’s hands for that one!
My point is that no matter how many safety features you build into these systems, no matter how fail safe you believe them to be, accidents can and do happen. It’s a fact of life I don’t think you want to admit.
“Taking the train should not be a risk.”
Doing anything ever is a risk.
Tomorrow morning I’m going to be taking Metrolink on the OC Line to Los Angeles. Despite today’s incident, I still believe the train to be a better option for me than driving.
Transit didn’t fail us. Some dude who wasn’t paying attention might have, or some piece of electronics that didn’t live up to expectations did.
If the risk is too great for the survivors of this crash today, then they are more than welcome to go back to driving. But if they get into an accident and die, chances are the incident won’t get commercial-free coverage, if it’s covered at all.
Obviously the details of the cause of the accident have not come out yet. If you know me, you know that I’m certainly not a believer in “100% risk-free” anything. I admit, my comments are emotional, but I also believe that there was probably basic negligence that lead to this accident. I could be wrong, but it seems that way initially. If in fact it is discovered that it was caused by a negligent operator or faulty piece of equipment, certainly a failure occurred. You then “fix” the cause of whatever caused the operator to be negligent (better training, management, equipment, etc) or “fix” the faulty equipment (new vendor, more maintenance, new technology, etc.) In the LA Times story, James Moore, a transportation engineer, says this:
The good thing about vehicles on tracks is that they CAN be actively managed. No one could actively manage the suicidal maniacs Jeep Cherokee in 2005, so it’s much more difficult to consider that accident a failing of Metrolink (although many did, as the discussion of push vs. pull became an issue).
A Metrolink crashing into a car parked on the track, a Blue Line hitting a pedestrian crossing tracks illegally, a Gold Line hitting a car trying the beat the train… these are all very different from any of those trains hitting another train. I’d likely be on Damien Goodmon’s side if the Blue Line had killed 70+ people by crashing into oncoming Blue Line trains.
We’ll see what comes out in the investigation. But it seems to me that the system Mr. Moore spoke of most definitely failed, and beyond the terrible loss of life and injury this failure caused, it also hurts our cause as transit advocates.
Spokker is correct. I lost a loved seven years ago yesterday in lower Manhattan, owing to air travel being abused. I have since flown a few tens of times across the continent.
For all the fatal accidents—perhaps the most remarkable being when some schmuck elected to choose an otherwise idyllic Sunday in Red Bank to leap in front of the train; he killed himself, but he not only put off the rest of us as well as compelled NJT to have us step from one train to another in such a fashion as to fatally endanger our passage—I refuse to not ride the rails nor take air travel (when it is relatively affordable) as well as do what I love best: drive across the continent thanks to Auto Driveaway.
In the meantime, gimme death or get outta my way. I am on the shametrain.
“but I also believe that there was probably basic negligence that lead to this accident.”
It probably was. In fact, many auto accidents are caused by negligence, that is, excessive speed. We have laws in place to limit speed, and yet they are broken all the time. What else do we do?
Let’s take the Placentia accident as an example. In that accident a BNSF freight crew missed a signal and failed to slow down. They struck a Metrolink train and killed two people.
Now how do you prevent that? Did they not do everything possible in order to prevent that accident? It’s in the job description that the applicant must be able to interpret railroad signals. They probably received extensive training on railroad operations. What else more do you do? Leave them a note every day saying, “Hey, don’t crash into any Metrolink trains today! Remember, red means stop!”
As long as humans are in charge of these things accidents will continue to happen in ways not thought possible. Should people lose their jobs over incidents like these? Yes. Should equipment be changed or upgraded? Yes. But even the new equipment will have this inherent fallibility.
Then there’s the plain fact that there’s no money to pay for upgrades. Some would say that we can spend billions on a pointless war in a foreign land and yet we can’t upgrade our railroads. But even then, there’s still an inherent element of risk.
Germany thought they had the most advanced trains in the world with ICE, but a goddamn wheel rim broke and led to an accident that killed 101 people.
I’m probably posting out of emotion too. I already regret what I posted on the Bottleneck Blog haha. Oh well. Gotta go catch my train now.
It hurts to know that the FRA has also been currently working with BNSF, UP, and Amtrak on testing several PTC (Positive Train Control) projects. PTC right now is essentially a safety overlay which prevents conflicts such as two trains in one block or to slow down speeding trains if the engineer fails to do so. In essence, PTC is specifically designed to prevent these type of accidents. It is just one more reason to get this system rolled out soon.
http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1265
Each morning and afternoon we look forward to the familiar faces of our fellow passengers and Metrolink crewmembers, as we share our lives with each other on the trains. We are a community who rides, works, and socializes together for hours each day. We support Metrolink, as each day its hard working team gets us to the jobs that provide for our lives.
We have built a community on the trains and also online. We plan to come together as a community to help the victims and their families of Metrolink 111. But for tonight, our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of 111, Metrolink staff, and the emergency crews on the ground and in the air who will work through the night.
Brian Buss, Founder of LAPassenger.com
Ventura County Line rider, train 113
As others mentioned, this is probably human error and the loss of life is horrible. The death toll, while high, is still comparatively lower than that annual carnage on the highways. Southern California has something like 600 highway fatalities each year.
My prayers are with everyone involved in metrolink train 111
[...] comfort for anyone affected by this, of course — not comfort at all. Reactions over at MetroRiderLA make for interesting and varied reading in the comments but I would have to agree with one poster [...]
My point is that professional negligence does not inspire confidence, not in me, and definitely not in the lay person who was considering giving the train a try.
Here’s what I feel about the difference in car accidents and train accidents. As we all know, fatal car accidents happen all the time, although they typically don’t get huge new coverage because of their regularity… they certainly get coverage. It’s not secret that a lot of people die in cars and a lot more people get hurt. Most people probably know someone who has died in a car accident, and most everyone has probably been in at least a minor accident. So why do most people continue to drive and get in cars without much fear? Why are most people at least a tiny bit nervous when they fly in a plane but only a minority when they drive a car? In my opinion, it has to do with control and trust.
The automobile transportation system is by the far the most complex way to get around, because there are so many individual variables with very little top-down oversight of all those variables. Road design, signaling, and road maintenance are all managed, but pretty much everything else is left up to millions of unprofessional individuals. The closest thing to actively managed oversight of these millions of unprofessional drivers are driving laws and the handful of mobile police who enforce them. So basically, when driving our trust and fate is left up to the design and management of the road, ourselves, and the millions of other unprofessional drivers out there. And the vast majority of accidents happen to because the failings of the roads, but because of the failings of the unprofessional drivers on those roads.
Of course to me, this is why driving is scary as hell. This is why is say “riding the trains should not be a risk”. Compared the driving, it should not be! It is a professionally and actively managed system where the unprofessionals, who would be responsible for the majority of tasks in automobile transportation, are simply sitting back for the ride.
When I read that the Placentia crash was occurred because the BNSF crew didn’t heed to signals because “Officials said the two men were engrossed in conversation and failed to recognize the first signal.” That upsets me more than hearing than an accident was caused by some jackass running a red light. The jackass, for better or worse, is an unprofessional just like you and I. The BNSF engineers on the other hand, are paid professionals. It’s their JOB the move the train and its cargo safely. It’s their JOB not to be engrossed in conversation and miss important signals. The only reason they are on this train is to move it without error.
If an unprofessional driver tries to beat the train, and the engineers crash into the car, the blame does not lie on them because the car was not supposed to be on the track. They were doing their job to the best of their ability, but an uncontrollable variable entered the picture. If, however, the engineers get distracted, fall asleep, get drunk, etc, and miss a signal which causes them to crash into an oncoming trains or crossing traffic, then the blame lies clearly on negligent professionals who failed to do their job.
So if it comes out that some sort of negligence led to this accident, can anything be done? It seems to that it comes down to management. If I was a BNSF and I found out that one of my trains had been crashed and killed 3 people because my engineers were engrossed in conversation, I would create new rules and encourage a culture where the safety and integrity of the rolling assets is paramount and even the smallest negligence is unacceptable. If it turns out this accident was caused be a fatiqued crew, then maybe it’s time to invest in another shift, since having a crew that is too fatiqued to notice signals represents a major threat to the rolling assets and the lives on board.
I’ll just let the article speak for itself…
http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Crash.Chatsworth.2.816721.html
I have to say that Denise Tyrell is a stand-up woman for admitting that her agency’s engineer caused the crash. Too often in government they may know exactly why something happened but refused to admit it until prodded in court because of the desire to avoid liability. Of course, that means that the agency, and its insurance companies, will be doomed to pay out millions of dollars in claims for the crash, and it will also seriously hurt Veolia’s attempt to get any large contracts in the United States for the foreseeable future.
My uncle died in the first car. Somebody needs to go to prison and be held responsible and I guarantee some Lawyers will be suing their dumbasses.What the hell!!!
The reason the tracks have not been double-tracked through that area is NOT because of NIMBYs preventing it, but because the trains must run through three tunnels to get between the SFV and Simi Valley. Those tunnels are single track and it would be extremely expensive to dig new tunnels. I believe that once in the Simi Valley the line is double-tracked. What is needed is a Positive Train Control (PTC) system which will automatically stop a train if it runs past a red signal. But that is expensive also.
Regarding the double or triple track, the Santa Susana tunnel is one of the three tunnels in this area. While the other two tunnels are fairly short, the Santa Susana tunnel took 6 year to build and opened in 1904. It is 7,367 feet long and the longest on the west coast (over one mile).
“Those tunnels are single track and it would be extremely expensive to dig new tunnels.”
But I thought that you can’t put a price on human life!
“Somebody needs to go to prison and be held responsible and I guarantee some Lawyers will be suing their dumbasses.”
You can’t put a dead man in prison. You’re obviously in pain and spewing nonsense on the Internet. Log off and go be with your family.
CBS is reporting that the engineer may have been text messaging just before the crash.
http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Engineer.Deadly.2.817045.html
Fred, what changes would Metrolink have to make in order to make sure that engineers don’t text their teen rail nerd buddies while driving a train? Let’s pass a hands-free cell phone law for trains.
Umm… how about no goddamn texting while driving a train??? It doesn’t have to be a law, it’s a company - if you text, play cell phone games, watch iPhone movies, etc. while driving a train you’re fired. At my old job you couldn’t look at YouTube or porn at work, since it would get in the way of our job (and my job didn’t involve massive pieces of machinery and peoples lives), so I don’t think it’s too much to ask that management outlaw texting while driving a train. Just my opinion though.
On a per mile basis, Metrolink is the only mode of transportation more deadly in Los Angeles than the Blue Line.
There aren’t numerically as many Blue Line or Metrolink accidents because there are only about 400-500 total daily runs over a 22 mile span per day in the case of the Blue Line and only a few dozen daily runs of Metrolink per day. 400-500 is the number of cars that cross one lane of one major street within an hour at a Blue Line crossing. So of course the number of vehicular accidents are greater.
The accident rates for both the Blue Line and Metrolink are exponentially greater than freeways. It’s really not even close.
And no. “Every” accident can’t be prevented. But a whole lot can. In the case of the Blue Line, something in the order of 95-99%. The transportation agencies in this region operate with a belief that the lawyers to defend against the lawsuits are cheaper than grade separation and system maintenance. Too bad people’s lives are only one part of the equation - and an insignificant one at that.
Prayers go out to the families of all the victims, and the victims that are currently struggling.
People killed by their own stupidity in grade crossing accidents or in cases of trespassing don’t count.
You could cite about 1,000 train related deaths per year (including grade crossing accidents and trespassing) or just deaths on the trains themselves, which would be in the single or double digits (if it was a particularly bad year).
U.S. Train Fatalities (Passenger only, excludes employee, crossing accidents, pedestrians on the tracks, etc.)
Year Deaths
1993 *58
1994 5
1995 0
1996 12
1997 6
1998 4
1999 14
2000 4
2001 3
2002 7
2003 2
Average 0.71 deaths/Billion passenger miles
http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/travel/train-plane-car.html
Some more: http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/summary.aspx
calwatch:While I simpathize with everyone that lost a friend or family member on Metrolink 111, we must also remember that the engineer who caused the accident has already paid the ultimate price with his own life. As such, rather than posting idle threats of prison time and lawsuits, we should allow the investigation to take it’s course so that it can be determined if Metrolink & Veolia procedures resulted in the accident - or if the engineer made an individual choice to put everyone on the train at risk by choosing to disobey safety rules that were in place. If this is the case, then my suggestion would be for Metrolink and Veolia to implement a new policy which is that engineers in the locomotive cannot bring cell phones on the train - which would prevent them from using them at all (the conductor should be allowed to keep their cell phone in case of an emergency).
Calwatch at #30 stated: “I have to say that Denise Tyrell is a stand-up woman for admitting that her agency’s engineer caused the crash.”
As the engineer is dead, such a revalation points less to Metrolink admitting an error as to the agency looking to slip out of a noose of its own making. There should be far more than one person seeing to the safety measures of a commuter train, and by immediately offering up an already sacrificed offering, Metrolink is looking to mollify the hundreds of families dealing with the loss, injury and medical costs while mitigating their own financial injury first.
If the engineer screwed up, then he did. But if Metrolink relies solely on an engineer to not be speeding down a track on which sits an idle freight train, then Metrolink has far more problems regarding safety—and a deadly dearth of measures to help attenuate such scenarios—than are being acknowledged by the agency.
Accidents and deaths per passenger mile is a highly misleading statistic, and intended to mask the most disturbing stats, which are exponentially greater: accidents and deaths per miles traveled.
Transportation system safety/risk/risk assessments aren’t predicated on how many passengers use the system, but rather on how frequently the system is involved in an accident or incident, regardless of whether 1 passenger or 200 passengers were on board.
Our worst stretches of freeways in Los Angeles average 1.5-2.0 accidents per million traveled miles.
The Blue Line in it’s best year is in the range of 15-16 accidents per million revenue miles.
Commuter rail historically is even worse.
Using the deaths of 25+ people to further your own political crusade is disgusting.
Damien, take your crusade and go to hell.
I know Najmedin Meshkati very well because we’ve been working together on the Expo Line. Here’s his quote in the NY Times:
“They are basically putting the whole burden of this accident on the shoulder of the operator,” said Najmedin Meshkati, a professor of industrial and systems engineering at the University of Southern California. “This is really like blaming the victim. We need to know, Why did he fail to respond to this signal?”
Did backup systems fail, or were they not used when they should have been, Dr. Meshkati asked.
Ventura County Star
Najmedin Meshkati, an engineering professor at USC, urges officials to get on track with rail safety in this state.
Meshkati arrived at the crash site Saturday morning, armed with a notepad and a raging curiosity to understand this tragedy.
Railroad safety, he told me, is based on what he calls the HOT principle: human, organizational and technological factors working together to prevent accidents. If all three fail, it’s like pieces of Swiss cheese when all the holes line up.
It’s not enough to blame human error every time, he said. How, he asks, did the organization and technology fail?
This goes exactly to what I think people are now beginning to discuss. It’s unfortunate that it takes a tragedy of this magnitude to do so. We have to get beyond “blaming the victim” when it comes to rail accidents.
aaron, aaron, aaron. So angry. All of the time.
For the last two years, I’ve read just about every rail safety guide and manual I could - limited only by that finite commodity of time. I’ve exchanged and contributed to memos and reports about over 3 rail safety studies.
The former Investigator-in-Charge of rail accidents at the National Transportation Safety Board, as in the NTSB that will conduct the investigation on this accident, is on my speed dial.
I’ve had no less than 3 conversations in the past 48 hours about this specific incident with Professor Meshkati - the foremost expert in transportation system failures, who recently received accommodations from NTSB for his contributions to transportation safety analysis. Again, the same NTSB that will conduct the investigation on this horrible accident.
Why would a person with my background NOT comment on this discussion, when of all the people in this thread, and in the net-transit community has spent the most time on this topic of rail safety?
You know what I could consider disgusting: attempting to minimize and dismiss serious discussions about safety with implications that people are only doing it to further personal political goals.
But I’m not disgusted - that would require a level of hate that I don’t have for you aaron - I don’t know you.
Rather, I consider it laughable because not only is it so very very wrong, but because it is reflective of a disturbing, but interesting psychological condition that infects not just you, but so many others.
And every word out of your mouth is linking this to the blue line.
You’re *happy* that this happened, because now you think you have more ammunition to link this to whatever rail project you want to oppose next. But your response is to describe me as having an “interesting psychological condition?” Yeah, I do have an “interesting psychological condition,” it’s called being human, seeing that today isn’t the time to go ranting on and on about how rail is bad.
Aaron you call out Goodmon in regards to him trying to further his political career, what about you dude. You don’t link LAist. Why not? How can you not link LAist when they are doing the best coverage in regards to this in the blog world. They should be commended on their awesome coverage of this very horrible tragedy.
I am not saying that Metrorider should not be discussing this, but as far as blog etiquette I think the one finger pointed at Goodmon by you in regards to opportunistic implications should be four fingers pointed at you.
Your links aren’t even right, the LA Times link goes to Boston. Real concern you show, concern with getting hits for your own post.
I miss alturistic Fred. He was a real community builder. I am not sure what you are trying to do here, but be mean and divisive.
Everyone stay safe out there and lets hope that there are no more deaths from this tragedy and do what you can in regards to helping the victims of this horrible, horrible tragedy.
I didn’t link LAist because I don’t read LAist and I haven’t been home all weekend; I’ve been getting my news from the LAT and SF Chronicle primarily. Having said that, I’ll edit the post and fix both things.
aaron,
You think I’m happy that this happened? When my mother was going to work to put me through private high school and put food on the table she would take this very Metrolink line every day. You think I’m happy that this happened?
You know what’s disappointing aaron, you’re clearly articulate and I assume capable, but you’re blinded by your hatred of a person you know nothing about.
The STATS, DATA, and STUDIES reveal a system-wide problem in the processes and equipment that need to be addressed NOW and may very well have prevented the accident if the issues I and people far more qualified than me have been requesting been addressed years ago.
The first step to solving a problem is recognizing the problem. Allowing untruths such as “Metrolink is safer than X,” dismissing this as a freak accident, or simply blaming it on the operator, implies that we really needn’t worry about it and can move on with our daily lives. People here may do such unintentionally, but in the world of government accountability, that is a politicians move that avoids having a needed discussion that results in policy changes and system upgrades that SAVE LIVES, but can only be done by without impunity pointing fingers and making decisions to change our allocations of scarce funding.
Doing otherwise is a disservice to the memories of those that have been killed and dooms us to far more of them, which can be prevented.
Anyone know how to access a metrolink schedule for the Orange County line? Metrolink’s website is basically shut down w/ an emergency announcement.
Google Transit should have the Metrolink schedules up.
Spokker: Spewing nonsense? come on guy!! Someone will be held accountable.. THINK!!
This operator was texting teenage railfans while operating a commuter train. Whether or not that has anything to do with this particular incident, it’s still incredibly irresponsible for him to do things like that. People like to make the dead out to be saints, but I’ll still criticize him for using his cell phone while on duty.
Damien, the excuses that they didn’t install these safety features or double track the entire line or whatever, will be that there was no money. We as a people vote down rail infrastructure projects and/or vote for anti-rail representatives. Then we expect transit agencies to do everything perfectly every time.
Metrolink isn’t conspiring to kill people. We as a state and nation need to step up and properly fund transit. I step on these trains knowing full well that they run on out of date track and signals. I still think they are safe regardless, but when someone screws up at the wrong time, there’s little chance to correct the mistake before an accident occurs.
“Spokker: Spewing nonsense? come on guy!! Someone will be held accountable.. THINK!!”
Don’t worry bro, riders will be held accountable in the form of higher fares and reduced service.
Spokker,
While it has been ascertained that the engineer was indeed texting (and is almost as bad as a Staten Island ferry captain being allowed to drink, pass out, kill and maim many passengers and then attempt to commit suicide with a BB gun—was living in St. George not 11 minutes from a downhill walk to the ferry, which I took at least once a day for a couple of years—when this happened, and I recall it clearly), can you qualify the “teen” bit? I found that mention in but one place:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=756739&page=2
I enquire because this is yet another outrageous incident of a total lack of oversight on behalf of those who take money to provide service and protection, and that the levity of the word “teen” among the allegations is one that is sure to muddle what is already a murky mess.
BusTard, it’s just another detail to the story. I personally don’t like hardcore railfans.
By the way, I found this nugget of brilliance on a railfan forum.
“I honestly think that the texting has nothing to do with the crash. I happen to know for a fact that many RR employees often text while “on duty” and in fact I’m not even sure it is against RR rules on all railroads..”
That’s reassuring.
Anyway, I’m not sure what you mean by oversight. The guy was an experienced train engineer who ran that route many, many times without incident.
Every day people drive on streets that won’t automatically stop your car if you run a red light. No matter how many accidents there are, people will continue to drive. Why do we expect, no, demand this kind of advanced safety system from rail?
Don’t get me wrong. I would LOVE to see PTC installed on every single track in the world. I would like to see every single line grade separated and double tracked. I would pop massive boners for that. But the money isn’t there. We don’t vote for rail initiatives that properly fund mass transit nor do we vote for representatives who are pro-rail, generally. Hopefully that will change after this accident.
But to sit on our high horses and condemn the railroads, Metrolink, whoever, is pretty much bullshit. I know there’s only one goddamn track in that area. I’ve ridden through that exact area on Metrolink and Amtrak about six or eight times. I know that freight trains are lurking about, ready to strike. But I still board that train. And many others will as well.
Well, while we are on the Anything Goes RR, then let me offer this (with the link, again):
“I worked for the CB&Q railroad that became the BN Inc. railroad that became the BN railroad that became the BNSF railroad. In total over thirity years. In all that time I never seen an accident that the railroad diden’t try to blame it on someone that died in it.”
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bottleneck/2008/09/metrolink-cra-1.html
That is NOT reassuring.
What I mean by “oversight” is that a single engineer being entirely responsible for a Metrolink commuter train’s safety. Is it really that difficult to understand?
Please do not imply I am condemning the railroads. I am demanding oversight. I imagine I am not the only one to understand this situation. There are folk who have commented here and been met with your demand that they stop “spewing nonsense on the Internet.” I doubt you have dealt with having a loved one die in a national tragedy; such an incident is one whereby one wants to grieve in peace but is bothered by most everyone, reads everywhere about it, and wishes no more than to not be bothered.
You would do well to stop implicitly insulting people, too.
“That is NOT reassuring.”
If the engineer is to blame, is it somehow immoral to blame that person because they are dead? We attempt to make saints out of the dead and all their transgressions are forgotten.
I am mad at the person or persons who caused the train to crash. I am not mad at Metrolink, the FRA, or any railroad.
“What I mean by “oversight” is that a single engineer being entirely responsible for a Metrolink commuter train’s safety. Is it really that difficult to understand?”
Technically there are two. Well, three if you count the dispatcher. I would like there to be four. Two conductors and two engineers. Throw in some computer systems, GPS, PTC. Do you want to pay for that? I would. Let’s get started on a bake sale to pay for it.
“I doubt you have dealt with having a loved one die in a national tragedy; such an incident is one whereby one wants to grieve in peace but is bothered by most everyone, reads everywhere about it, and wishes no more than to not be bothered.”
And the best course of action to take for him would be to be on the Internet right? I acknowledge the harshness in which I made that comment and apologize, but I genuinely think he would do well to log off the Internet and be with his family.
While it wasn’t national, and therefore not as important, I have dealt with having loved ones die. And I can tell you that I didn’t go and grieve on the Internet.
“You would do well to stop implicitly insulting people, too.”
I disagree.
Scare tactics to make us drive more? [You decide]
How could a Metro Link with its dedicated daily route have the same tracks as the freight train [that's not time-sensitive can deliver at night]
Can it be that the freight is running late on a same tracks in the MORNING?
I have to agree with Spokker and disagree with BusTard.
Now of course, we truly can’t make judgement until the full investigation has taken place, but if in fact it turns out the engineer was negligent, how can we NOT place the blame on him? How is that wrong? Humans so desire to place blame on monolithic entities (eg, “the corporations!”), I assume to make them feel better about the reality of life. This train line ran for 16 years without such an accident. The system worked until something in the system failed. But obviously there was “oversight” or this would have happened a long time ago and it would have happened regularly. I hear lots of talk that certain pieces of technology or additional tracks or etc. etc. would have prevented this accident. But can’t technology fail? In fact, technology may have been the failure in this case.
I heard some comments around the internet that Positive Train Control (PTC) is the oversight that could have prevented this accident. But is that the case? According to a recent article in Mass Transit Magazine:
What if untested technology failed? Then who do we blame?
The fact is that for 16 years this train line rain 11 times per day without an accident like this (you do the math to figure out how many possible chances for a collision with a freight train that comes out to). It managed to run safely without PTC, without separate tracks, without two conductors and two engineers. If the investigation reveals that indeed the engineer ran a red light because he was not paying attention (eg, texting), we have to ask do we want to spend billions on “safety” so the people we pay to drive our trains safely can text instead of driving a train safely? If it turns out a signal was broken, should we spend billions on “safety” so the people we pay to maintain equipment can neglect it? Who’s to say they won’t neglect the new technology?
And to people bringing up the Blue Line, Expo Line, or previous Metrolink accidents involving automobiles or pedestrians. NO NO NO. This accident is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from a grade crossing accident.
“It probably was. In fact, many auto accidents are caused by negligence, that is, excessive speed. We have laws in place to limit speed, and yet they are broken all the time. What else do we do?”
excessive speed is NOT correlated directly to accidents caused by negligence. Germany, France, Italy, and other countries drive much, MUCH higher speeds than we do in the US but have a lower fatality rate in many circumstances.
Speed doesn’t kill in the US, it’s incompetence. So please don’t perpetuate the fallacy of the US only propaganda about “speed kills”. It’s bullshit.
…anyway, back to the regular conver