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ChineseDaily Transit Links Roundup
Contributed by Fred Camino on May 6th, 2008 at 10:01 am
- Re-regulation threatens to destroy the successful U.S. freight railroad industry.
- Even once-decrepit Hollywood has its NIMBY’s.
- Is this the California dream? Up-and-coming actress loses her life to the 101.
- Saturday is National Train Day, celebrate at Union Station
Discussion
Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Please keep discussions civil: exercise Troll Controll.
Man, there may be a huge shortage of rail, and arguably a shortage of bus service, and a definite shortage transportation infrastructure funds, but there is seemingly an endless supply of NIMBYs around wanting to thwart any project or improvement.
The freight railroad industry is NOT in trouble, give me a break, and they are no saints. In fact, they are just the opposite. You think the freight railroads advocate more passenger rail travel? Not on your life. The freight railroads would do everything in their power to ELIMINATE all passenger rail travel if they could and they often try. They stymie Amtrak left and right. I can’t believe you even posted that headline. Sympathy for the freight rail industry? None.
I posted the four Westside Extension subway alternatives maps here.
Also see Metro’s images of monorail above Wilshire at Fairfax here.
Settle down. We each have our opinions. I happen to respect Adron’s opinion, and thus posted the link to his article about new regulations on freight rail in the U.S. I never said the freight industry was a bunch of saints. I do think however, the freight rail industry is proof that rail is a great and economical and profitable form of transport (in this case the transport of goods, but why not passengers?). I don’t see why we should be upset and try to regulate this mode of transport that has found a way to be profitable while privately owning, operating, and maintaining not only their carriers but the roads those carriers move on. Contrast that with our autoroads, which are used and abused by freight trucking companies, who according the the federal highway administration pay only 50%-80% of the cost of the roads they profit off of.
It was the de-regulation of the industry in the 80′s that saved it and made it profitable again. Regulations add cost, not lower costs (and certainly not “competition”). It’s the shippers being greedy and wishing for short term savings, not realizing that these regulations will increase costs and reduce efficiencies.
As for passenger rail, you and I both know its failure in the U.S. has far more to do with the nationalized car culture and America’s love-affair with the personal automobile as well as the aviation industry, than the success of the freight rail industry.
Wow, I think Fred pretty much summed it up perfectly.
Simply put ocean, you can hate everyone you want, you can hate the freight rail industry, you can hate the car drivers, you can hate airplanes. The fact is, you can’t get rid of people around you, you can’t deny that we have probably THE most efficient and cost effective freight industry in the world (yes, the world), you can’t get everyone out of their cars, and you really can’t make people stop flying.
Facts be facts, and our freight rail industry often scrapes by. Only in the last decade have they finally been able to start gaining returns from the capitol outlay THEY have put out (not the feds, state, or other) to invest in their logistics system. Now that they’re making profits (pretty reasonable ones by any business’ standard) all of a sudden their under attack. They’re still cheaper and cost the American consumer LESS than 18-wheelers (who don’t even pay their way), far LESS than comparable foreign freight rail system, and the list goes on.
History has already shown us what freight rail regulation does of this nature. It is not good for ANYONE in this country. Eventually this WILL come back to bite us in the ass.
I’ll be picking the HR 1650 bill part, piece by piece, in the coming week or two. We’ll obviously have time to pick it apart since it actually has made in roads… I almost dread the task, but I’m going to do it because it is worth the time if I can even get just a few people to pay attention to this bill and what it will cost us in the end.
…and just for the record, it doesn’t matter if the freight guys are saints or satans, I’m looking at this purely from the consumers point of view. In the end, we’ll be the ones getting the bad deal and I admit, I HATE getting a bad deal.
Don’t tell me to “settle down”, who do you think you are? You are both entirely naive in supporting the freight railroad industry, and if you believe the freight railroad industry today has not been detrimental to passenger rail travel, you are seriously an amateur when it comes to the situation.
Oh yeah sure, and that’s what a lot of people say about Amtrak (that Amtrak should be like that – privately owning everything with no government subsidy). Be careful what you wish for.
The ever-increasing demands of freight travel is a competitor with increased Metrolink service. It’s a sticky problem for which I don’t have an easy answer. We cannot and should not shut down the economic activity with the port, but we need to expand commuter rail as well.
I don’t want all that railroad freight now traveling via trucks on our highways. I can only imagine the costs of building more designated railways.
Does anyone know if the high speed rail tracks built could also be used by commuter rail? Building high speed rail, expanding commuter rail and expanding freight rail, not to forget restoring Amtrak if possible seems fraught with difficulty. But we need to find a way to do just that.
Jeez. Ad hominem already and we’re only in one reply level of comments already.
I’m not sure why you keep bringing up this passenger rail dilemma, that is oranges to the apple of this conversation and article topic. This bill has zero to do with passenger rail. It has everything to do with harming and hampering expansion of the freight rail system.
So please stay on topic.
thx.
Sir or Madam, I think I am the person who created and maintains this blog, a free service that you happen to take advantage of. You said “I can’t believe you even posted that headline” as if I have a duty to only post headlines you like or agree with. I gave you a reasonable answer and defended my position about posting of the headline. Your only rebuttal is to call both me and Adron “naive amateurs” on the situation without one single fact or even an opinion on the issue (save for the ad-hominem attacks).
If you paid for this service I provide, I might offer you a refund and say “sorry, perhaps reading MetroRiderLA is not for you”, but alas since it is free so I can’t offer you a refund but, perhaps reading MetroRiderLA is not for you. Never fear though, there are plenty of other blogs to read and better yet, most blogging services are free and all it would take is an investment of your time and energy (as I have invested mine) to start your own and share your thoughts in more detail than you have here.
It’s completely on topic, as the freight railroads have a very big hand in the success of the passenger railroad traffic the way things are today. I say, regulate them so they are FORCED to always allow the passenger trains priority over freight, and pass regulation that encourages and allows more passenger rail traffic. As long as Amtrak and commuter railroads have to travel over these freight railroads private tracks, the two are linked and related.
As far as “ad hominem”, please. If I called you an idiot or a blockhead, that would be “ad hominem”. Saying your opinion is naive and amateur is not attacking you personally, and taking it as such is a bit sensitive.
P.S. Fred, I have certainly given my opinions, and I didn’t know you were above criticism for the headlines you post just because you are the creator of this site.
Ok, so since we’re going to slide into the passenger rail conversation…
There is already HEAVY regulation and fines in place for freight trains that stop or delay passenger trains. Problem is it isn’t THAT simple. There is not a simple legislative “fix” to this problem per your suggestion. The supposed “fix” is already in place anyway and making it any more draconion won’t do any good for anyone, the freight or passenger industry.
Take the Sounder in Seattle or the WES Commuter rail that will be opening in Portland, Oregon soon. These are examples of how, when, and where passenger rail can and would work well with freight. They both are prime examples, that if society is willing to pay the price to start up passenger rail service again, it can be done correctly without adding costs and delays to freight as it currently does on most of Amtraks System.
So really, naive and amatuer is a very weak adjective to label me or Fred. Look at what is succeeding and what is failing. Study the financial structures, the current legistlative overhead, the FRA rule book, and the mere fact that our cities are completely sprawled now. I promise you’ll find that the freight railroads are a rock on the road compared to the roadblock that the feds, FRA, and other entities are to real passenger rail in this country. You’ll find the deeper you dig, the FRA doesn’t allow high speed trains in country because they aren’t heavy enough. The FRA requires exhorbitant breka in periods that are impossible and unreasonable for a private and often a public entity to pay for. The feds fund Amtrak by a strangulating hold while they pour funds into roads and other modes.
So really, the freight railroads aren’t the real problem. It’s our backwards Federal Government and our mixed mode funding with politicians acting like we’re a free-market.
The bill in question has nothing to do with passenger travel! It is a bill that effects the freight companies and shippers, has nothing to do with Amtrak. It simply gives the FTC the power to regulate what and how the freight industry prices its service to shippers. It does not give passenger rail priority over freight or allow more passenger rail traffic.
I think you are bit naive about the definition of ad hominem.
Regardless of what words you used, you attacked our character and not our argument.
I have no problem with being criticized, just don’t appreciate being called naive and amateur without sufficient burden of proof. If you can show me how H.R. 1650 will improve passenger rail, then I will concede naivety.
I believe you mean “It is a bill that *affects* the freight companies….” Affect vs. Effect. Big pet peeve.
As far as I’m concerned, the freight railroad industry gets no sympathy from me, end of story. They wanted out of the passenger business, agreed to Amtrak, and then have spent the last 37 years doing everything in their power to not live up to the agreements and treat Amtrak like total shit. The freight railroads are complete bastards in this regard, and I would not defend them in any way, shape or form on a site that promotes passenger rail.
On a side note, I am completely and totally aware of all of the other problems Amtrak faces with the federal government and an ignorant and selfish American Public, but the freights are just as big a part of it. I also never implied that the bill in question had anything to do with passenger rail as you seem to think I believe. What I stated is that Amtrak and passenger rail in general cannot be separated from talking about the freight railroads. The freights have a big influence on passenger rail in this country since they own and control the majority of the tracks that passenger trains run on.
I have no problem being called an amateur writer, cuz that’s what I am.
You work against freight rail you work against the underlying economic engine and strength of this nation. You do that, there isn’t much reason to have nice things like passenger rail to begin with.
Simple cause and “effect”. Hate it all you want, it won’t do passenger rail or the bottom line of this nation any good by perpetuating this stereotype that the “big bad evil horrible monster freight companies” are destroying passenger rail (or however one would frame something like that).
BNSF does a great job of handling tons of commuter rail. They also handle the most on time transcon passenger trains on the Amtrak System – Empire Builder.
Also you should check your history and why the freight asked the Feds to allow them to stop offerring passenger service. It wasn’t because they just wanted to stop running that business, they wanted to stop bleeding red from every corner because of that business.
The reason it bled red had nothing to do with the Freight Railroads and almost everything to do with the Federal Government and a particularly strong auto based constituency working against the railroads via political means to gain an upper hand in the market for passenger traffic.
Needless to say the autos won out on the political front, got VERY preferential treatment, and the railroads – then both freight and passenger – suffered horribly because of it. They suffered even further at the hands of regulations and almost all started or went into bankruptcy until they where freed in the 80s to actually operate their own businesses and not operate under the whim and fancy of politicans, special interest groups, and all to powerful constituencies that would rather we ship things via truck than by train.
But I digress, it seems that naivety is not something I have, nor an amatuer understanding of this industry. I have consulted, studied, and been involved intimately with the industry for the last 5 years, with the family for over 100. I strongly urge you, Mr or Ms Ocean, to study and really find out why you would or would not want to support the railroads in their plight for survival and a true competitive market environment in which to operate. You’d be surprised how many in the freight industry are actually our friends in the desire for passenger service.
btw – You seem to have gotten flame from my link.
So has anyone actually read HR 1650 thoroughly? Right now it is on my weekend reading list to finish. I started and read enough to know what the gist of it was but didn’t finish the details.
I never said why they wanted out, I just said that they did. What makes you think I didn’t know they were losing money? The point is, they wanted out.
????
and on another page:
I can tell from these quotes on your website that you are not someone I would likely ever agree with or align myself with politically. You actually vaunt the “Guilded Age.” So does the Bush administration.
I’ll agree with you about that freeway in Seattle though. Thank God San Francisco not only had the freeway revolt, but tore down the Embarcadero freeway and half of the Central Freeway. Maybe Seattle could get a clue.
You can’t deny, that it was the only time in American History when we had what people can only dream of now – at least people that want a balanced, sustainable, capable, and economically feasible and publicly desirable transit system.
Between 1860-1940 we had just that. Only later did we lose it all. Now it isn’t financially sustainable, economically feasible, environmentally friendly, or very good for humanity in general what we have now.
We don’t have to agree “politically” but you can’t deny historical fact.
btw – Thanks for reading my blog. Feel free to comment there too. I’ll be happy to take you to task on any current political notions or thoughts with tons of relevant facts, data, and concrete statistical correlations.
What do we spend now? 200+ billion a year from the feds. The state total is well over 200+ billion a year. We spend over 400 billion a year on transportation related public funds and we DO NOT have what we had then at ZERO cost to public funds.
That isn’t a political stand, that’s just observing the facts.
cheers.
Just a little bit. I think it’s all cool now. I just got taken a little off guard and the implied notion that I was somehow in error for posting the link. Agree or disagree, at least it gets us talking and doing some more research… as long as we stay away from those old ad hominems!
That’s all I’m trying to acheive most of the time. Just to get people to research where this country has been and where we’re trying to go. But not just that, how it would be reasonably done for max return.
I still think you are, it’s not something I would have done on a site that advocates passenger rail, but apparently we are not going to agree on this point.
Hey ocean, got any entry for ya right here: http://adronbhall.com/blogs/my_transportation_obsession/archive/2008/05/07/6989.aspx I’ve elaborated a bit more on the bill.
I got links to reference material and some great reading material in there. I also elaborate on how I can see the bill affecting passenger rail – negatively – which leads me to wonder why you’re coming out for the bill. Logic would seem to dictate that you hate feight rail companies so much that you would allow them to be hurt even if it meant less passenger train service… but… that might not be…
So feel free to go lay down some data, facts, and historical information on my entry. I’m all up for being proven incorrect about my stance on this bill and in all honesty I sincerely hope I am wrong if it gets passed.
…cheers.
I’m neither coming out for the bill or advocating against it. I do hate the freight railroads. Like I said, they are bastards. I would not advocate for them on a site devoted to passenger rail and transit. That’s it.
P.S. Here is my real “radical” opinion I know you will hate, and that is why we are not on the same wavelength. I do not believe in private railroad tracks. I believe that the tracks should all be owned by the government, just like the Interstate Highway system is. The railroad companies would just use it like trucks and private automobiles use the highways.
That’s awesome and hilarious.
So you believe if someone builds something they have no right to it anymore if some public population uses it? Maybe the Government should build some of their own tracks? I just haven’t seen them successful in a single endeavor of this scale. Even the Interstates, at the rates they spend on that, is vastly higher than what it could have been if done in private hands similar to the railroad construction. Of course if it had been done that way it would be self-sustainable and the Govenrment would have no control or rights over it as they do now.
…and for the record. I don’t “hate” any of these ideas you profess to enjoy. I just find them sad, dishonest, disrespectful, corrupt, morally deprived, and other such notions. The idea that others have control or rights to something someone else created is truly disgusting to me. I don’t believe in theft and robbery as an honerable occupation.