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	<title>Comments on: Proof That Grade-Separation Can&#8217;t Save Us From Stupid Drivers</title>
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	<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/</link>
	<description>los angeles transit oriented lifestyle</description>
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		<title>By: Happy Opposite Day! &#124; MetroRiderLA</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-302751</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Opposite Day! &#124; MetroRiderLA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-302751</guid>
		<description>[...] Jalopnik is proudly &#8220;obsessed with the cult of cars&#8221;. MetroRiderLA often has articles poking fun at bad auto drivers, and Jalopnik is not above making fun of stupid bus drivers. Jalopnik is part of the Gawker Media [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jalopnik is proudly &#8220;obsessed with the cult of cars&#8221;. MetroRiderLA often has articles poking fun at bad auto drivers, and Jalopnik is not above making fun of stupid bus drivers. Jalopnik is part of the Gawker Media [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Streetsblog LA &#187; Today&#8217;s Headlines</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294764</link>
		<dc:creator>Streetsblog LA &#187; Today&#8217;s Headlines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294764</guid>
		<description>[...] budget deficit grows to $16 billion (Press-Enterprise)Nothing is Completely Safe...(Metro Rider)Fare Gate Reasoning Deconstructed (Metro Rider)Hearings Coming for Crenshaw-Prarie Transit Corridor [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] budget deficit grows to $16 billion (Press-Enterprise)Nothing is Completely Safe&#8230;(Metro Rider)Fare Gate Reasoning Deconstructed (Metro Rider)Hearings Coming for Crenshaw-Prarie Transit Corridor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cochon</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294680</link>
		<dc:creator>cochon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 03:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294680</guid>
		<description>there are few highways in manhattan(poor robert moses, thank you jane jacob!) - jfk and west side highway and about 1.5 million people jammed on the island. few people drive, but when all of new jersey and long island come in on the weekends, their hummers, escalades and navigators clog the surface streets.

bloomberg should implement congestion pricing from about 6pm on friday to 6pm sunday and have it start at delancey street and stretch north, not south. he&#039;d make a mint for the city, lol.

i remember people would do this sort of thing in the duboce tunnel in san francisco. i walked through it once with a friend. amazing graffiti.

great post! thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there are few highways in manhattan(poor robert moses, thank you jane jacob!) &#8211; jfk and west side highway and about 1.5 million people jammed on the island. few people drive, but when all of new jersey and long island come in on the weekends, their hummers, escalades and navigators clog the surface streets.</p>
<p>bloomberg should implement congestion pricing from about 6pm on friday to 6pm sunday and have it start at delancey street and stretch north, not south. he&#8217;d make a mint for the city, lol.</p>
<p>i remember people would do this sort of thing in the duboce tunnel in san francisco. i walked through it once with a friend. amazing graffiti.</p>
<p>great post! thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Browne</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294675</link>
		<dc:creator>Browne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294675</guid>
		<description>Why can&#039;t we get Zell from the Times over to METRO to trim all of the basics and just build rails all over the place, common sense be damned. Then the rails would be built and it&#039;s not like anyone can repo them once they are built.

That&#039;s how you manage, build, lie, cheat, and deal with the consequences later. The MTA does too much of the lying and cheating, but with no buiding and managing, if they did all of their sneaky stuff in addition to building very quickly we could have rails.

Don&#039;t ask, just do it. No more silly meetings. The Metro and all of their meetings reminds me of my French Club in high school. We had all of these darn meeting and never accomplished a thing, I think we just had fun having meetings. So what is it, is METRO run by 16 year old girls?

Keep in mind I&#039;m not necessarily for rails, but I could get them built if I were head of the MTA. I&#039;d probably end up doing jail time, but they would get built.

Browne

I&#039;m obviously sort of joking with this post, but I won&#039;t say which parts...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why can&#8217;t we get Zell from the Times over to METRO to trim all of the basics and just build rails all over the place, common sense be damned. Then the rails would be built and it&#8217;s not like anyone can repo them once they are built.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how you manage, build, lie, cheat, and deal with the consequences later. The MTA does too much of the lying and cheating, but with no buiding and managing, if they did all of their sneaky stuff in addition to building very quickly we could have rails.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t ask, just do it. No more silly meetings. The Metro and all of their meetings reminds me of my French Club in high school. We had all of these darn meeting and never accomplished a thing, I think we just had fun having meetings. So what is it, is METRO run by 16 year old girls?</p>
<p>Keep in mind I&#8217;m not necessarily for rails, but I could get them built if I were head of the MTA. I&#8217;d probably end up doing jail time, but they would get built.</p>
<p>Browne</p>
<p>I&#8217;m obviously sort of joking with this post, but I won&#8217;t say which parts&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: FredCamino</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294670</link>
		<dc:creator>FredCamino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294670</guid>
		<description>The cool thing about LA traffic jams vs. NYC traffic jams is that the LA ones are on GRADE SEPARATED 8 LANE FREEWAYS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cool thing about LA traffic jams vs. NYC traffic jams is that the LA ones are on GRADE SEPARATED 8 LANE FREEWAYS.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294669</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294669</guid>
		<description>Bert: Compared to Hollywood at night?  7th Ave is one of NYC&#039;s biggest Downtown thoroughfares (5th ave is slower, and 6th and 8th are 1-way Uptown).  I flew into LAX a year ago today, (Sat. the 24th I think) and we got stuck in a traffic jam getting to the Century Freeway, at 10pm.

There&#039;s gridlock at all hours ;p.  Maybe not as bad as Manhattan, but compared to any other US city, there&#039;s gridlock at all hours.  My father does highway design  and other transportation civil engineering for a living (I&#039;m sure he&#039;s laughing inside somewhere at the fact that I&#039;ll never drive) and he said that he&#039;s never seen anything as bad as LA, not even NYC.  He makes his living designing highways, and yet he said that, at least as to Downtown and the Westside, that building more highways is pointless, that more roads will no longer solve LA&#039;s traffic issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bert: Compared to Hollywood at night?  7th Ave is one of NYC&#8217;s biggest Downtown thoroughfares (5th ave is slower, and 6th and 8th are 1-way Uptown).  I flew into LAX a year ago today, (Sat. the 24th I think) and we got stuck in a traffic jam getting to the Century Freeway, at 10pm.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s gridlock at all hours ;p.  Maybe not as bad as Manhattan, but compared to any other US city, there&#8217;s gridlock at all hours.  My father does highway design  and other transportation civil engineering for a living (I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;s laughing inside somewhere at the fact that I&#8217;ll never drive) and he said that he&#8217;s never seen anything as bad as LA, not even NYC.  He makes his living designing highways, and yet he said that, at least as to Downtown and the Westside, that building more highways is pointless, that more roads will no longer solve LA&#8217;s traffic issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Bert Green</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294658</link>
		<dc:creator>Bert Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294658</guid>
		<description>Despite the bitching in Los Angeles about traffic, there is not gridlock at all hours. I was in NYC recently, in a car with friends, on 7th Ave. South on a Saturday night leaving the city for a friend&#039;s beach house in New Jersey. The traffic in the Village was gridlocked at that hour. Short of a CAR-B-Q on the freeway, you&#039;d never see that in LA.

But the day will come. And when it does, if there is not a train to save people from themselves, the city will shut down. It will cease to be competitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the bitching in Los Angeles about traffic, there is not gridlock at all hours. I was in NYC recently, in a car with friends, on 7th Ave. South on a Saturday night leaving the city for a friend&#8217;s beach house in New Jersey. The traffic in the Village was gridlocked at that hour. Short of a CAR-B-Q on the freeway, you&#8217;d never see that in LA.</p>
<p>But the day will come. And when it does, if there is not a train to save people from themselves, the city will shut down. It will cease to be competitive.</p>
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		<title>By: FredCamino</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294656</link>
		<dc:creator>FredCamino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294656</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Yes, BUT when you are trying to get people to stop using their cars and use public transit, speed is important. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Sadly, speed is a factor that makes people choose the car for their trips&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is true, and this is a challenge transit faces when it comes to getting people out of their cars and onto trains.  As I&#039;ve noted, even fully grade separated subways are significantly slower than cars on freeways without traffic, so speed will always be an issue.  Transit is not and will not be as fast as cars.  For example, your North Hollywood to Redondo Beach trip takes 30 minute by car... that&#039;s an average speed of 56mph.  That&#039;s almost twice the speed of the Red Line and almost 3 times the speed of the New York and London subways.  So  if there was a subway directly from NoHo to Redondo Beach it would have to go 56mph, with no stops, to get there in 30 minutes.  Not gonna happen.  At the Red Line&#039;s average speed (30mph) the trip would take 56 minutes.  If you have a need for speed, get a car my friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yes, BUT when you are trying to get people to stop using their cars and use public transit, speed is important. </p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Sadly, speed is a factor that makes people choose the car for their trips</p></blockquote>
<p>This is true, and this is a challenge transit faces when it comes to getting people out of their cars and onto trains.  As I&#8217;ve noted, even fully grade separated subways are significantly slower than cars on freeways without traffic, so speed will always be an issue.  Transit is not and will not be as fast as cars.  For example, your North Hollywood to Redondo Beach trip takes 30 minute by car&#8230; that&#8217;s an average speed of 56mph.  That&#8217;s almost twice the speed of the Red Line and almost 3 times the speed of the New York and London subways.  So  if there was a subway directly from NoHo to Redondo Beach it would have to go 56mph, with no stops, to get there in 30 minutes.  Not gonna happen.  At the Red Line&#8217;s average speed (30mph) the trip would take 56 minutes.  If you have a need for speed, get a car my friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294650</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294650</guid>
		<description>Shows how spoiled we are when we complain that our light rail lines are slow. I noticed some other cities rail lines average hovers around 20ish MPH, lets not forget our Orange Line (bus) averages 20MPH. Sometimes it&#039;s faster when there is the right amount of riders boarding, no bikes or wheelchairs, a good set of green lights, and an attentive and speedy driver. I&#039;ve once rode the Orange Line from Van Nuys to NoHo in 9 minutes for 4.5 miles - thats 30MPH average speed!

Houston&#039;s METRORail is only 7.5 miles and takes 32 minutes; that&#039;s an average of 14MPH; I can bike close to that speed. And for comparison, my everyday commmute to work consists of a Rapid bus, the Orange Line, and the Red Line - all 17.5 miles together, I usually do that in 1 hour, but sometimes I can do it quickly in 47 minutes or slowly in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Sadly, speed is a factor that makes people choose the car for their trips. I go to a swapmeet that occurs near the Redondo Beach Green Line station and I take my friends with me; after trying the Metro route of taking the Red Line from NoHo and following my way to the end of the Green Line for about 90 minutes, my friends told me not to take the trains anymore, so I would drive them. Following the apporoximate routing using the 170/101/110 (Harbor Transitway)/105/405; I make the trip in 30 minutes, and that is starting more north than the NoHo station; lest this is a Saturday morning so traffic is light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shows how spoiled we are when we complain that our light rail lines are slow. I noticed some other cities rail lines average hovers around 20ish MPH, lets not forget our Orange Line (bus) averages 20MPH. Sometimes it&#8217;s faster when there is the right amount of riders boarding, no bikes or wheelchairs, a good set of green lights, and an attentive and speedy driver. I&#8217;ve once rode the Orange Line from Van Nuys to NoHo in 9 minutes for 4.5 miles &#8211; thats 30MPH average speed!</p>
<p>Houston&#8217;s METRORail is only 7.5 miles and takes 32 minutes; that&#8217;s an average of 14MPH; I can bike close to that speed. And for comparison, my everyday commmute to work consists of a Rapid bus, the Orange Line, and the Red Line &#8211; all 17.5 miles together, I usually do that in 1 hour, but sometimes I can do it quickly in 47 minutes or slowly in 1 hour and 20 minutes.</p>
<p>Sadly, speed is a factor that makes people choose the car for their trips. I go to a swapmeet that occurs near the Redondo Beach Green Line station and I take my friends with me; after trying the Metro route of taking the Red Line from NoHo and following my way to the end of the Green Line for about 90 minutes, my friends told me not to take the trains anymore, so I would drive them. Following the apporoximate routing using the 170/101/110 (Harbor Transitway)/105/405; I make the trip in 30 minutes, and that is starting more north than the NoHo station; lest this is a Saturday morning so traffic is light.</p>
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		<title>By: calwatch</title>
		<link>http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/comment-page-1/#comment-294649</link>
		<dc:creator>calwatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metroriderla.com/2008/02/20/proof-that-grade-separation-cant-save-us-from-stupid-drivers/#comment-294649</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The need for speed is a creation of the car-culture. The need to go everywhere at 75mph is ludicrous. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, BUT when you are trying to get people to stop using their cars and use public transit, speed is important. They have to feel like they are going fast. On the subway, the train is moving fast enough and you don&#039;t have landmarks to guide you on how fast it is going (unless you are going really slow, like BART through the Oakland Wye switches). The New York subway feels fast primarily because of the old track, which clickety-clacks through tunnels and on elevated segments. I think when people bitch about the Gold Line&#039;s lack of speed, they are mainly thinking Highland Park, even though that segment is only maybe three minutes long. The freeway segments tend to skew the average speed calculation as well. Still, when that bike is passing you, it&#039;s the longest three minutes in the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The need for speed is a creation of the car-culture. The need to go everywhere at 75mph is ludicrous. </p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, BUT when you are trying to get people to stop using their cars and use public transit, speed is important. They have to feel like they are going fast. On the subway, the train is moving fast enough and you don&#8217;t have landmarks to guide you on how fast it is going (unless you are going really slow, like BART through the Oakland Wye switches). The New York subway feels fast primarily because of the old track, which clickety-clacks through tunnels and on elevated segments. I think when people bitch about the Gold Line&#8217;s lack of speed, they are mainly thinking Highland Park, even though that segment is only maybe three minutes long. The freeway segments tend to skew the average speed calculation as well. Still, when that bike is passing you, it&#8217;s the longest three minutes in the world.</p>
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